Transcript

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Are you eating grilled cheese? Or is it a quesadilla, what is that?

Samer Al-Saber  

Egg in a pita.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Oh yeah.

Samer Al-Saber  

Sorry, I just felt comfortable eating. Because, because I know you're not gonna judge me.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Oh my God, are you kidding? [both laugh]

Welcome to Theory Speaks, the podcast of Prompt a journal of theater theory, practice and teaching. I'm Jeanmarie Higgins and joining us today is Samer Al-Saber. Samer Al-Saber is Assistant Professor of theatre and performance studies at Stanford University, where he teaches courses concerned with identity, race and ethnicity at the intersection of Islam and the arts. His recent scholarship focuses on Palestinian Theatre in Jerusalem. A scholar, director and playwright Dr. Al-Saber is the co-editor of the anthology Stories Under Occupation and Other Plays from Palestine from the In Performance Series by Seagull Press. He recently directed his new play, My Arab, in a workshop production at Stanford. In May, he produced an online version of The Gaza Monologues, a zoom reading of 31 monologues by young Palestinians, directed and performed by university faculty and students. Before Samer and I get to talking, let's listen to part of that performance. 

Samer Al-Saber  

The fifth monologue was written by Amanee Al-Shorafa. It was directed by Jeanmarie Higgins from Penn State University, and it is played by Sara Al-Bazali.

Sara Al-Bazali  

The day the war began, the first hit was at the Ministry of passports. My friend and I came out of an exam, it was the first day of the first term exam, we sat in front of the school gate, talking and waiting for the rest of our friends so we could go home together. Suddenly, there was a series of explosions. I was in shock, and I felt that I was going to die.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

So can you tell us a little bit about The Gaza Monologues, like what is that project? And how does it exist now? How can we engage with it? And what did it tell you about the voices that you are recording in this in this document?

Samer Al-Saber  

So the project of The Gaza Monologues is one of those projects that have been a long time coming, but I didn't know it was. And so I would say that, first, my engagement, my first engagement with the Gaza Monologues happened when I was in Ramallah, in 2011, maybe 2010. I don't remember, one of those years, and ASHTAR Theater did a full production of The Gaza Monologues that I saw at the cultural palace there. And I was amazed by the language, by the production itself, by the acting, by the presence of everyone there. It was, there was I mean, I don't remember how many people there were, but it was a full house. And it was in the hundreds. A big house. And so the experience of the young people in Gaza during a war, being under siege, under attack, and being able to engage with theater, being able to tell their stories was quite powerful as a concept. And I did not imagine it as an audio play, or a zoom play or, you know, it just always was going to be a play on stage. And then when I was coming up with the concept for an anthology of plays that are from Palestine that have been produced in Palestine, created in Palestine, and originated in Palestine by Palestinians for Palestinians in Palestinian theaters, as opposed to diaspora or people writing about the topic of Palestine. That monologue had to be there and so, Gary English and I edited this anthology called Stories Under Occupation other Plays from Palestine, which has The Gaza Monologues in it. Because from the last 20 years, that was one of the great cultural events that I think happened in Palestine. And so when the latest events were happening in May, the air raids, the attacks on Gaza, were happening. I was kind of in a bit of a paralysis of knowing this is, I mean, wrong and horrible what's happening and not being able to do anything. I open the anthology and there were those plays. And I thought, what if I just hop on zoom and read it? And just tell everybody I know that I'm doing that? And then the next part came up. What if I told my friends to read it with me? So I sent an email to a few friends and said, Would you be willing to read this with me? They said, Oh, we could also have some of our students do it. And then I said, Would you be willing to ask your other friends? If they're, they would have their students do it. And really, that's how that project came about. It was like, Okay, I have four or five people, including Gary, who said, I'll ask some people if they're willing. And I said, Okay, so that gets us with the people here to nine monologues being read without me reading anything. So nine out of 31, that's not bad. I think I can go crazy and try to get more people to do it. So basically, I set the deadline, and then started sending the emails on a Thursday or Friday night. And I said this deadline for the following Thursday night, and sent emails to people and said, Hey, this will take an hour of your time. This is the time if you can make it, you can make it. If not, I'll be reading the monologues myself.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, so I remember that it happened very quickly. And I remember such a positive response, a quick and positive response to your request. So just for you know, folks who might not know, the the Gaza monologues then is 31 monologues. Yeah, from young people. And it's the young people's words, Palestinian youth. And so a bunch of different universities, and maybe you can tell us, like which universities might have participated, you know, each took on one or more of those monologues cast it, directed it, and then prepared to perform it. And then bam, it was performed. Over zoom for anyone who wanted to attend so that we could, I think you said something like so that we could all just read the play together and be together it's something to do when you don't know what to do. And it just struck me as a really great example of, you know, so much of what we do as professors and educators is, you know, we listen to what students want to do. And then we provide a structure. And it's, it struck me as a really great structure for a lot of people who just didn't know what to do with their outrage and their grief. And so yeah, so thank you for that. So who all who all took part and you know, who were sort of your partners? How big did that circle grow?

Samer Al-Saber  

The circle became really huge. Certainly. You're part of the circle. And I wish I had the list in front of me. I can definitely pull it up and start, you know, telling you the actual list. But, you know, University of Washington, St. Louis, University of Minnesota, Florida State University, obviously, Stanford University where I am now. University of Oregon, University of Washington, University of Northern Illinois. Where else? Illinois State University. Yeah, I mean, it was all, NYU, it was all over coast to coast across the country. And it was just the people who participated were 31 young people who were undergrads or graduate students, and their directors who were graduate students or faculty. That's how the system worked. And it was really an ad hoc system. And as you said, it was individuals who are in paralysis, not knowing what to do saying. Theater is what I do, and the least I can do is engage with those words and maybe the idea of walking into the into the shoes of someone else. And that's really the whole goal of the thing. And that basically the system was, we show up, we read, we walk away, and whatever happens happens. And that's exactly what happened. And I, I've been receiving emails saying that that was a great thing that we did that, ever since. There will be a version of this after we get everybody's permissions that will be available online, that people can use for teaching purposes, or they want to engage themselves. So that that version is in the works. And it'll be quite simple and reflective of what what we did. So that's, that's how people can engage with it. They can engage with it by picking up an anthology through their library or buying it online. And teaching the monologues. Everybody is welcome to email me. I'll show up to your classes, I'll discuss with your students. Happy to engage. And I'm sure, Gary would be willing to do the same thing.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Oh, yeah, well, we will definitely take you up on that in my performance studies class. For my general education students, I think they'd find that thrilling, already decided to adopt the play as the play that they read in that class. And so yeah, well, because it's so hard to find material that young people really relate to as dramatic literature and also as activism. And I think that The Gaza Monologues does both.

Samer Al-Saber  

One thing I will tell your students from now is that they should not feel like like, the difference between them and the character, whether it is a question of safety, or privilege, or ethnicity, or nationalism, or national belonging, or religion or race, those differences should not be how they forefront their reading of the monologues. Start reading from a place of commonality is the best way to engage with these plays. And there is no embarrassment about reading aloud those words, because those writers, playwrights want them to read those words aloud. 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

It's true. Thanks for that.

Samer Al-Saber  

So there is a major crisis, I think, in America today, when it comes to representation and a huge misunderstanding of this idea of playing someone else being a problem. I think playing someone else is a privilege that we should be proud of. And we should take forward and do as often as we can. There are many considerations when it comes to casting, in this case, reading because one is in solidarity, performing because one is in solidarity is the goal. And one's ethnicity and the status of life should not prevent them from doing so.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Thanks for that. Yeah, that's because of course, that has been the conversation in almost every academic theater department, if not every academic theater department or theater program in the country. For the past year, year and a half has been about what a student feels comfortable doing in terms of representing someone whose maybe gender identity or expression or ethnicity or age differs from their own? And where is it irresponsible to represent someone who does not look like you or have a background like yours? That's a tough question.

Samer Al-Saber  

I believe, on this issue of whether to do this. On the issue of whether one should perform someone of another identity or not, I fall on the side of "be wrong but do it" rather than not doing it and then never learning and never growing as a person as a department as a community. I would rather see failures in characterizations than not seeing the monologues being done.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, I am feeling the same way. In our theater studies area at Penn State, you know, we're always thinking about the texts that students read in class and whether we are the people as a predominantly white faculty to say "read these plays by non white people." And then what we've come up with over the past couple of years as well, everything we do is going to be just a little wrong. And so, what comes with that is you know, when you get criticism, you take it, you stand and you listen to it. And you say thank you and you regroup and you plan again.

Samer Al-Saber  

I learned from, from our senior lecturer in dance, Aleta Hayes, this phrase, be wrong and strong. 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Love it. 

Samer Al-Saber  

I want to see you be wrong and strong. 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Oh, yeah.

Samer Al-Saber  

Her dances are so daring and stunning. And I love working for her and with her for that reason, because she has taught me that--be wrong and strong--and I think with casting and with this question of being irresponsible, you know, being told one is being irresponsible is a great growth opportunity. And I think over the last 10 years, a lot of department professors, artistic directors, directors have relinquished that responsibility and played it safe. And what "We See You W.A.T" I think, is demanding that, that they come back to the table and and fight it through.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, and those fights are happening and it's healthy. Those fights are happening in season selection committees. They're happening in, you know, conversations with students. And I think it's healthy, it's painful. But ultimately, I think we'll come out the other side having a way more vibrant set of experiences in our in our theater programs, at least I hope so.

So you're a playwright. And so The Gaza Monologues is more of a curatorial, dramaturgical editorial kind of project for you. But you are working on two projects right now.

Samer Al-Saber  

Yeah. So interestingly, I've always written plays, I've just written them for my own intellectual engagement with the world. And I never really had interest in being a playwright. Because I became an academic, I was a director, I acted then I stopped acting. But basically, I settled on being a director, and being a scholar. And this is where I am, this is where my career is. But playwriting for me was always an exercise in theatricality, in understanding the world, in engaging with argumentation in a way that makes sense in my head. And so one play, My Arab, is about these two people who are trying to fight out this conflict, this racial conflict that occurs, and it takes place in a hurricane in Florida, the Gulf of Mexico.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

In an Airbnb. . .  [laughs] 

Samer Al-Saber  

[laughs] In an Airbnb, and like the timeline is Trump's election to Biden's inauguration. And there is this massive monologue in it where she says to him, that she wants this utopian life with him. They are fighting, they are arguing this moment of infidelity, indiscretion on her part, and she comes back says, "No, no, I want back in, you know, I'm sorry about my indiscretion. But I want back in we can have a perfect life. We are the future." And she ends a monologue with the words, "This is where I take my stand. This is where I decolonize, be my Arab, I'll be yours." And that's like the grand stand the grand gesture of the play. So so that's that's one project. And I just finished staging it in an empty theater here on campus. We had a secret performance where a few people showed up, and we had discussion afterwards. And it was really nice to do a secret performance by the way, speaking of hidden voices. Like I sent texts to people and my casts sent texts to people. And said "Secret performance at this hour, you show up by the fountain, we will walk you through these areas until we get you to the theater, we read, we leave. The other play is that I had sent to you is--let's not say its title because this title is painful--but it's basically about someone who, an academic actually, who passes away during a conference. And some academics have to figure out what to do with this scholar who is an international was an international citizenship from elsewhere and he's in a foreign country and away from his family and basically the kind of blunders and the pain and the struggles of being in a place where you are essentially you know nothing, you don't know what happens with, with a body once it goes away in this particular state. And the strange experience of someone handing you the passport and saying, alright, now you have the passport. Now you are next of kin. Now you're responsible for the body, and then all of a sudden you're tracking a body through bureauocracy. That's the story of that play. And it's a monologue. There are characters in it. But essentially, it is a story being told by one person. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's what I have for those two plays.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

You had said in some of our correspondence that, that there's something about the monologue, as you know, a form that is Palestinian, that the monologue is the right--I shouldn't say right," but you know is an apt way to hear. . .  

Samer Al-Saber  

. . . yeah . . .

Jeanmarie Higgins  

. . . you know, theatrical voices from Palestine, what do you what do you mean by that and why, why Palestine and not other places? Or maybe, you know, what is it about the monologue that's right, right now?

Samer Al-Saber  

Yeah. So, I do think that the monologue has been a superb way to communicate Palestine. I don't think it's exclusive to Palestine. I want to be careful because what I'm about to say may apply to many places around the world. 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Oh, of course. Yeah. 

Samer Al-Saber  

Right. But so, you know, if the listener feels like I'm trying to be exclusive, I really am not. And so, there has been amazing voices coming out of Palestine through monologue, and they do think that comes through a heritage of poetry. So, if anybody is interested, they should check out the works of Byzantium poets from the 20th century. Samih Al-Qassem, Mahmoud Darwish, Taha Muhammed Ali, there are a bunch of great poets. And the way these poets presented and continue to present those who are still alive, continue to present their stories is through public presentations of monologues that are quite familiar to the Western audiences. You know, a person walks on stage and recites poetry, but it is a monologue. And so in the last 50 years, there has been some stunning one person shows that came out of Palestine, one of them being Taha from Amer Hlehel, a play that I take is one of the greatest one person shows I've seen ever. And he takes basically the poetry of Taha Muhammed Ali, and he turns that into a one person show, with all the traditional, you know, multi character playing and props and lighting, etc. Fast transitions, it moves. It's really a stunning, stunning monologue. Other plays you know, Fidaa Zidan did a beautiful one person show about her brother who serves in the army and dies and how her family has to contend with this idea of serving or not serving the state. I know Amira Habash does a beautiful show, as well. I know, Hussam Abu Esheh did a beautiful show as well. There are several ongoing shows that continue to play today in Palestine that are one person shows. And the reason why they work is because they are driven by storytelling. They are driven by minimal engagement with theatricality and theatrical things and objects. But also, Arabs come from a tradition of El-Hakawati, the storyteller that basically sits in a cafe and entertains people for hours at a time. So the audience is familiar with a tradition and can engage with it. And the actors come from that tradition and they can engage with it as well. And so you've got a kind of a convention that is shared between audiences and performers, that goes back forever. And so that engagement, that long term engagement serves a great way of communication, where the play happens in between. In terms of the difficulties of Palestinians telling stories. There's always an opposing narrative when you say the word "Palestine." That opposing narrative aims to erase it, to not exist anymore, to say that it's illegitimate. What I love about the monologue form, is that the Palestinian story with the Palestinian body, onstage, stands alone, tells a story in its own terms, on its own terms, without the need (by virtue of the form) of dialoguing with an opposing narrative. And in a way you create the world or you share the world that is yours. And you don't have to have another character show up to please the audience who want that opposite narrative. In a way, it best represents the life of the Palestinian, in my opinion, in an environment that is, I would say, requiring them to not tell their stories on their own terms.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

That's interesting, you know, I it's almost like. . .  My mind went to, before you started to sort of so beautifully explain how you think of that, I thought of, you know, the body on stage being irrefutable, there it is, there it is, there it is, it already is there. But then when you add to it, this dimension of . . . the actor is not required to engage in any kind of dialectical process except with the audience, which is very different than with any kind of you know power that is arguing against that person's identity or existence. Yeah, wow.

Samer Al-Saber  

I wrote an article a while back called "Roses and Jasmine," which is an article about this play that Adel Hakim, playwright and director.... It's an adaptation of Antigone that he did in Palestine and toured in Paris. And in it, I discuss this performance by Shaden Salim, who plays a Jewish woman who is a Holocaust survivor. And Shaden plays a character so beautifully an engages with her with such emotional gravitas and love that I think is quite rare to see on stage. And what was most powerful about this performance to me is that it was a ventriloquism that resists traditional narratives or opposing narratives. By ventriloquizing her Other or her adversary, with love, with commitment, she actually is able to say, my ability to understand her should teach the audience to understand me, if I make her irrefutable, I as a Palestinian body breathing on stage am irrefutable. And I call that a Resistant Ventriloquism, because as opposed to ventriloquizing being a bad thing. Actually, ventriloquizing another opposite, that another narrative that really consciously opposes you and your existence, demonstrating that you understand them fully does necessitate that you exist. And you are here in your own fullness and your lineage and in your history. And so, without you knowing yourself, you can't understand another so fully. And so. . . 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

. . . then by literally staging that, it's sort of it's a provocation to do the same for me, to do the same for me who is speaking. Yeah. 

Samer Al-Saber  

That's it. And that's how I end that article of saying, alright, now that that this was staged, can you do it over on the other side? Will you do it with the same love, commitment and respect, and can you repect that narrative equally so? And I don't know. But I think that's what's so powerful about that performance. And that's why I wrote an article about it.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

I wanted to ask you--so this podcast is called theory speaks, right? So we talk to theorists who speak, and I know you and I have had chats about how what you do is not theory. And you know, I would I would argue with that, I would say that what you do is theory, it's criticism as theory and it's dramatic writing as theory, and it's editing as theory, it's all those things. But, you know, if you think back to some of the thinkers who have influenced you and your practice the most, who comes to mind, who are the, who are the people that you've read that stay with you? And then who are you reading now?

Samer Al-Saber  

We had an email, you and I from UW a while back about Sarah BB and putting words on the page in her memory. And I just have to say that as I wrote that memory and I sent it, I remembered every theorist that she assigned.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, we're talking about our mutual professor who recently passed away. Sarah Bryant-Bertail, Brecht scholar and performance theorist. The beloved "Sarah BB."

Samer Al-Saber  

Beloved Sarah BB. And I wrote down those names, and the top of the list was Edward Said. And the reason why he was top of the list is because he has this essay called "On Originality" in his book, The World, the Text and the Critic. And it's a short essay. But you see the defiance of structure, institutions, Academia, the world, the western, structural poststructural mindset. It's a stunning little essay, where he basically says, there's a difference between circularity and originality. You could be circular, you could basically take a play take a theorist and show us that, yes, the theorist's thing and the plat are, you know, alike, plays and critical theory are alike, you know, so that you can do, that everybody can do that. People do that all day long. And so Edward Said, that there is a fundamental confusion there that productivity here is originality, you are productive. You wrote an essay that shows us how Marxist thought helps us understand, I don't know, Tom Stoppard's The Real Thing, 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

which is actually a really good topic. Yeah. 

Samer Al-Saber  

It's a god topic! [laughing] 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

It is. It is. 

Samer Al-Saber  

Yeah. But it's like, Okay, fine. You did that. That's, that's circular that is productive, in some level, sure. But is it original? No, it's not original. Because the play was there. The theory was there. It's not original. But if you were to take Marxism, and its antecedents, and everything that came after, and you say there is a kind of a progression in thought here, and I would like to take it to the next step. And I'm going to do it within its own intellectual lineage and all the people in conversation and you do that deep work to understand human existence in relation to something, and then you make us better understand ourselves through that. Now, that's originality, and that takes work. That isn't--you take a play or a film or an idea, and you show us that, indeed, Marxism is a great critical tool. And so that, to me, is the reason why Edward Said is such a remarkable scholar is that he was able to sidestep so many structures and institutional restrictions and traditions within academia. In order to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish, Orientalism is a tour de force. I mean, this thing is like I, you, you read this thing and you're like, Whoa, you went over four centuries. And you helped us understand a psychological framework that leads to the creation of an aesthetic. And then you did that through a historical narrative, as well as an understanding of an artistic practice, as well as an understanding of multi disciplines doing all the same thing. And then you put it forward with a clear, myth framework of strategic formation of saying, This serves the goals of Empire. And that's why it proliferates, and there is no opposing narrative that stopping it, there is nothing greater and more powerful than Empire and its institutions. He gives it to us on a silver platter.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

It's true.

Samer Al-Saber  

And of course he gets attacked and so on. And, and that's fine because the study is imperfect. Of course it's imperfect. But wow, you want to talk so why was Orientalism so powerful? Why do we say the word the Other with a big "O" today with a basic understanding of what that is, it's because of Orientalism, which is a credit that's given to him by Judith Butler and bell hooks and, and all these contemporaries, but you've got all these people from the last 20 years suddenly speaking, you know, postcolonial lingo and so on, without ever crediting that, you know, an Indian woman, the Gayatri Spivak, you know, is the one who asked us the question, "can the subaltern speak?" And, no, actually, we can't hear her. And therefore, we really have to make every effort possible to get outside of our privilege. Why is it that that Indian woman's name is not mentioned every time we talk about critical race theory and, racial oppression and the Other etc?

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, we hear the word subaltern a lot, but we don't hear Spivak cited.

Samer Al-Saber  

At all, and in conversation, right? Edward Said and this question of the Other, this question of the aestethic of Orientalism as foundational to many studies in feminism, in critical theory, in representation entirely. Why don't we say that a Palestinian man in the 70s wrote this book that has been foundational to our understanding, what we get is a reductive point of view of like, Oh, I see a man and a turban, or even Orientalism, that's all we get. It's like you've got you've got hundreds and 1000s of scholars and journalists and students, reducing that book, to I see a man in a turban, Orientalism

Jeanmarie Higgins  

or cultural appropriation, you know, someone wearing clothing, that that is from a different culture. And so that's appropriation, and that's as far as they might get.

Samer Al-Saber  

That's as far as it goes. But what it is, is that it's a book about the creation of knowledge. It is about the epistemology, it's about, it's about challenging everything that you've ever known in life. That's what that book is about is to say, Wow, my reactions, my gaze, my way of understanding a human being or a thing or an object or a work of art, is entirely flawed and has been flawed since my birth. That is what Orientalism is about. It's not about being so smart and saying, You're an orientalist. I can't believe you did that. And so, what I love in terms of theory, what I love is that theory is a challenge to our core as human beings, when it is done right. 

Jeanmarie Higgins  

And you mentioned something about how rigorous Said is. And again, it is a hundreds and 1000s of years study in a way and it and he engages with ideas that came before him, so that it is original. And what really struck me--I had a little aha there when you were talking that this idea of being original--requires a great discipline and a great engagement with what you might be responding to or pushing against or reframing which takes a lot of patience. And a lot of time. 

It really does. One thing that was really interesting just to jump on the theater maker kind of way thinking of this with this play, My Arab. So many colleagues, friends, artists, directors, once they read it, they have a problem with the ending. And they say something like, I'm unconvinced, I wouldn't do that. Right? And that's kind of amazing. Because when somebody says to me, I wouldn't do that. I might be Yeah, you probably wouldn't. I wouldn't either. But in that play, that person does that. What does it mean to you? Right? But what I learned, especially with people of color, in a white American institution, like the theater, is that you get these people who supposedly are smarter and better than you. And they're like, Oh, yeah, that character shouldn't sound like that, it'll need some rewriting, you know. And what they're doing in the process is they're bringing the play, and the ideas to their purview and area, and liminal space. And by taking a play, or a work of art that is unfamiliar and making it familiar, they rob it of its power. And so I have one character, Charles, in the play, who's this beautiful white man, who's smart, lovely, funny. I mean, I love that character, I wrote it from a place of love, so much love. And it's a composite of so many white men that I have known who are friends, you know? And everybody that hears the play or sees it and thinks about it, or like, Yeah, but he's such a caricature. And I'm like, maybe you're a caricature then.

Yeah, mm hmm.

Samer Al-Saber  

You know? And so it's like, that question becomes, okay, fine, I will make this character be more familiar to you. So you can love it more and engage with it more, and so on. But if I do that, then the entire point of the play falls apart. And there might not...

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, we're not used to certain characters being sketched, rather than really drawn in detail. And so often, those are the sort of, you know, white men who are going through some sort of struggle, that's what we're used to. I mean, and without even knowing we are, like you said about Said. It's like you wake up one morning, you read this book, that side route, and you say, Oh, my gosh, everything I do is in service to structures of power that I didn't even though were holding sway over every decision. Yeah, theatergoing. Like the same way. It's like we're used to the, we're not used to the sketched out white male character, we're used to this sort of deep, deeply drawn...

Samer Al-Saber  

... because the white man experience is the quintessential experience. And, you know, for a moment, this character is secondary. But is held in great importance in the play. And you go, but if he's so important, why is he not perfectly sketched out? Or design and sketch out those out? In 90 minutes? Well, it's because he's not the main character. So I'm not gonna give him more time. But also, he's very real. And what isn't being questioned is how much time does this character gets? At what point in the conversation do we enter to see him, at what point in the day in the year in his lifetime we see him? So why does he have to be perfect? And why is it that you are not accepting, as you say, sketched out white male on stage, but you have been accepting pretty much every POC being sketched out all over the stage and the screen and the news for your whole lifetime?

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Exactly. Yeah.

Samer Al-Saber  

And why is it a problem when I do it? Right now, in the American Theatre, there is a fear of originality. There is a fear of ideas that slap you in the face. And there is a fear of triggering audiences. There's a fear of complaints. There's a customer service approach that I think is quite cheap. And on occasion, we have a play that is gutsy. And it makes it all the way through. And it does great.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Always, almost always right?

Samer Al-Saber  

Almost always, you know, originality always makes it through. And that's what's what's bizarre about this. We've got an industry that is constantly shooting itself in the foot. It's like, you know, diversity actually is a capitalist wet dream, like, put the diverse people on stage and tell the stories. It's exciting. It's wonderful, they're great and talented, and you will make lots of money. But they don't, because they think that no, we're not going to make money if we do that.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

And it's funny how you think about the things that have made so much money. And they are, they're usually the things that started with a really sort of avant garde impulse or an impulse, you know, to resist something. Or some are just plain outrageous. You know, Jeremy O. Harris, right? My students, I assigned slave play, and they read the play, and they were all texting me. They were mad. They're like, you didn't tell us that, you didn't warn us. And I was like, Yeah, no, I didn't. I didn't warn you. I'm sorry. You still have to write your paper.

Samer Al-Saber  

Why should you warn them?

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Paper's due on Thursday still? Yeah. Okay. That's a tough, that's a tough, that's a tough call, right? The idea of trigger warnings. And that has been something I've been struggling with too, as a dramaturg, especially for my own, you know, theater department. I don't know what they're really for. And I do know that some people really appreciate them. And they tell me why. But I'm still you know, I'm thinking about that. I dont know.

Samer Al-Saber  

Yeah, I have to say what trigger warnings, I there is there's something really dangerous happening. And it's so dangerous, that it is scary. Scary. It really scares me as a theatre maker, as an educator. And what scares me about it is that right now, we are in a position where the reason trigger warnings exist is to fend off complaints. Not to take care of people.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, yeah.

Samer Al-Saber  

But it's also is the reason for it is that the trigger warning is for the one person who complains as opposed to the 1000 that have an experience. And that one person isn't taught that they should not rob the 1000 of their experience, that it is not about them. It is not about their feelings. It's not about their ego, it's not about their well being. It's about them taking responsibility for these things, and ensuring that they build up resilience, and have therapy, and have a community and self care and do research to prepare themselves or choose not to do something, to call the theater and say, I have these conditions, should I attempt this play? as opposed to saying actually trigger warnings, there will be a gun, there will be this, this, this, this and that, and all these other things. And here's the plot of the play while we're at it, and here's a video recording of it in advance, just to make sure that you can watch this and be okay. Like I honestly, What's the date today? Friday, the 23rd of July. Maybe you and I will listen to this in 10 years. And come back to this moment. In 10 years, there will be a general understanding that audiences need to take responsibility for their own feelings, their own triggers their own problems. And theaters will do blanket warnings. If you come into our space, you must be ready for anything. Just like people always have throughout the history of times, and we will surprise you will trigger you we will shock you. And if you cry, it's okay. That's what happens in the theater. If you scream it's okay because that's what happens in the theater.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

And if you need to get up and walk out that's okay too.

Samer Al-Saber  

And that's okay. If it's not for you. That's okay.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Yeah, I hear that especially after this past year where it was very difficult to make decisions because of fear that you were harming someone, and then trying to separate that from Well, when have I actually done harm for which I need to apologize? And, of course, you know, when you do harm you do you want to apologize, but it's hard sometimes to parse out, you know, what caused harm? And what is, as you say, just sort of part of what theater does. Yeah. Yeah.

Samer Al-Saber  

And again, of course, theaters need to take responsibility for representation, and what stories are being told, and who's getting employed, and race and ethnicity, and diversity, and questions of who participates, and ableism. And all that. All of it must be considered, like gender dynamics need to be considered in a very serious way. Absolutely. All of it, all of it must be done by the theaters. But at the same time, because theaters have to do all that, they cannot be responsible for what somebody experiences and thinks in the audience as well.

I hear that.

Theaters must be responsible for themselves. Audiences must be responsible for themselves. And that's the audience theater contract.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

There's a question that we ask all of our guests.

Samer Al-Saber  

Yeah.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

And the question is, What are you reading right now? Or what's the last book that you've read? always sort of, you know, like, on paper, like you sat down, you read the book, you put it down? Or like, What are you reading right now?

Samer Al-Saber  

I mean, I'll just honestly, I don't know what I've been reading. Because the last two weeks I've been--

Jeanmarie Higgins  

--for our listeners, he's surrounded by books on every shelf, chair, floor--

Samer Al-Saber  

There's alot of picking up books and dropping them.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

I think there might be a treadmill over there or something, I don't know, but there's books everywhere, so.

Samer Al-Saber  

I think that's a, what's it called, teleprompter.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Oh it's a teleprompter.

Samer Al-Saber  

So I, here's a book I want to talk about, this book, Homeland Elegies by Ayad Ahktar. So I've been picking it up over and over again for the last--since it was published, six to eight months ago maybe a year ago? Because I am fascinated by this writer.

Jeanmarie Higgins  

Why are you fascinated by Ahktar? Tell us about that.

He is unique. Yeah. You can't really pinpoint his ideological stances. That's for sure. Right. He's very complicated. His writing is beautiful. His prose is beautiful. His theater is action packed and moves with ease and expertise. And at the same time, he's really presenting these works of art that that create, you know, controversy, but more controversy within his own community, than the community's supposedly he's supposed to be advocating in front of for his community. And the book here this book, Homeland Elegies is raunchy, it's action packed. It begins with a chapter where Donald Trump is there as his dad's doctor, his dad is his doctor. Which is like a true part of Ayad's life. His dad was, in fact, Trump's doctor for a brief period. And the reason I've been picking it up over and over again, is because I've been trying to look at the construction of his prose, and trying to figure out how he works. He's quite meticulous. But he cares, seems to me, he cares most about two things, transitions and vocabulary. He consciously uses elevated vocabulary. So he really, he tries to create instantiation of some kind, elevating the language in a way to either kind of make the reader think in a more complex way, on some level, or to cut out certain readers. And I don't know which one and this is fine. It's like, are you have to cut these people out? Or are you trying to kind of like, make sure that they're thinking in a complex way, just like you are, you know, so I don't know. So that's one. And the second thing is he keeps it moving through transitions that are absolutely brilliant. He's a plot mover. And I like that about him. At the same time, ideologically, I don't know if I agree with him on anything. But partly because I can't pinpoint him. I can't put him in a box. And as a result, I I like him, I find him fascinating. So, I've been picking that up. Yeah, I've been picking that up and putting it down. 

Oh, well, thank you so much for being our guest here on Theory Speaks for Prompt Journal. We are super excited. I'm hoping that you will, if you have any interest, if you would like to speak at Penn State at any time, sort of come and speak to the students about your research or your writing or your work in any way. And we'll certainly be inviting you to do that. And if that interests you, I hope you will. 

I'm on board, I would love to.

Theory speaks is the podcast for Prompt. A Journal of theatre theory, practice and teaching. Prompt is a performance praxis laboratory that puts theater artists, performance theorists and theater instructors in conversation with each other through teaching videos, critical essays, design documentation, original plays, and things we haven't thought of yet. Prompts editors are Ryan Douglass, Michael Schweikardt and me, Jeanmarie Higgins. Our founding editors include Alison Morooney, Alyssa Ridder, Bea Chung Ortiz, Grisele Gonzalez Ledesma and Rozy Isquith. We could not possibly do this work without the labor and expertise of our interns, Serena Davanzo and Jacob Malizio, BA Theatre Studies majors at Penn State University. You can find Prompt on the web at promptjournal.org.